Policy, NOT Bickering.
I have made no secret over the fact that I am bit of a policy wonk.
I joined the NDP because I agreed with (or thought I agreed with) the policies of the party. Here in Saskatchewan that means balanced budgets, strong crowns, public medicare and investments in social development (for example public housing, schools and universities, and a decent social safety net).
I think the above would be considered fairly non-controversial at an NDP gathering.
But there is one issue in Saskatchewan that is growing to be more important that most other issues, and it is one that our party has a split on.
I am talking about the environment.
There are a lot of facets to this split, there is the pro/anti nuke groups, there is the pro/anti oilsands groups and there are the overall "we have to be moderate and can't do anything that the SP and the media will use to say we are anti-business" group and there is the "this is the global crisis of our generation and the defining issue of our times" group.
Obviously I am in the second one.
But I am more that willing to have the discussion, and the debate. I want to discuss ideas and beliefs and at the end of the day vote on it and let the best side win.
That is why I joined a political party to begin with.
But what worries me is that the so-called leadership race that is taking place in the Saskatchewan NDP these days cannot be called anything of the sort. Look, again, it is no secret that I want a race. I want lots of people in the race. And that is not due to any anti-linginfelter sentiment. I am genuinely not opposed to Link as leader.
What I am opposed to is the stupid, stupid people he has working "for" him.
When it comes to the discussion, the Link supporters are his biggest problem.
I have linked to a couple of discussion groups in the past over at rabble and I will link to another one now. You don't have to spent too much time reading it to see that there is a vocal supporter of Linginfelter that is going out of his way to make an ass of himself.
If this was an isolated incident then that's fine, you have to expect some craziness from supporters during a leadership race, that is to be expected.
The problem is that this is not isolated. It is happening all over babble and other forums. It is happening on facebook, where fake identities are being created for the sole purpose of creating groups to oppose other potential leadership candidates. And then these fake identities go around on the attack. And there is blog posters galore. Heck, one of them has been on here in the past making all sorts of over-the-top attacks. And then there was a letter to the editor in the Regina newspaper from a Link supporter that was personal and way, way over the top.
It is fine to support Link, it is quite another to launch vicious personal attacks all over the place.
Now again, don't get me wrong, I have decided that for better or for worse, even if I don't think I agree with all of his policies, Link is at least willing to let his name stand. That says something about the man. I might have my issues with him as leader, but they are about policy, not about him as a person. From everything I know about him he is a decent man, who obviously cares enough about the party to offer to lead it when we might be looking at 3, 7, or heaven forbid, 11 years without being the government.
Again, that says something about the man.
But the thing that bothers me is the people around him. I don't mean his small brain-trust (although I have some concerns about them) and even the "young professionals" group that he is trying to build. That's fine.
The people working for him online, and in the paper, are complete dicks though.
So this is my problem. Either he doesn't get that this is making him look bad, which would show poor judgement and someone who does not "get" the internet. Or else this is his team's plan.
Either way I have a problem with that.
As I said at the top of this post, I want this campaign to be about ideas. I want to have the nuclear debate, and I want to have the oilsands debate and I want to have the environment debate. And I want to support or oppose a leader based on those ideas. And if my preferred candidate does not win, then I want to pick myself up and work for the man or woman that does win.
And maybe I have to wait for someone else to get in the race for this to happen.
But in the meantime, if Dwain and his people read this blog (and I have no idea if they do or not - I kind of doubt it), please, for the love of god, call off the attack dogs.
Try putting out some policy so we can talk about that.
17 comments:
Where is the Link supporter making an ass of themselves on babble? Engaging with individuals who clearly are only out to be negative was a stupid decision but other then that I am not sure how what they are doing is wrong?
The Leader Post article was wrong to go at Dion but was dead on in regards to Yens. It was not personal it was simply stating that if Yens believes in renewal as he states he does then he should remain as Party President and work towards renewing the party or get into the leadership race.
In politics you should never throw a punch and expect nothing to happen back. So its hard to see individuals as dicks when they are simply dealing with individuals who only goal is to be complete dicks. Some of the dicks you dealt with in the past challenged you on your statement that you would support Link if elected Leader when previously you indicated you would consider leaving.
I think the anti-Link individuals should look in the mirror before they start calling other individuals "dicks"
What a surprise. An anonymous poster who wants to fight a fight that a "different" anonymous poster was having with me months ago.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Notice no acknowledgement of the anonymous facebook detractors. Or any engagement on the policy issues that I brought up at the beginning of the post.
And finally, if you actually read my post you will see that I said that IF there is a full-blown policy fight and Link wins, then I will support that and work to get him elected. I am just despairing that that will happen.
What fight are you talking about? You complain when individuals respond to the empty attacks against Link. You complain about facebook attacks against everybody except Link and you put your support if Link is elected Leader on a stipulation. Either you will support Link as Leader or you will not.
"Either you will support Link as Leader or you will not."
Yep. No arrogance here.
And yes, as I have said, I disagree with some of Link's policies. But I respect that he is willing to let his name stand.
Now if the party gets a fair hearing and there is debate and discussion and the majority of the party decide they agree with those ideas then I will support the majority and thus support Link.
If there is no policy discussion and everyone just says "Link is the only one who can win" then fine, that is their choice.
It is also my choice not to get involved in the election. And Link's people don't seem to gett that. They think they can just go around treating people with contempt and that we will just sit here and take it.
Well, I for one won't.
And finally, still, here we are, with no discussion of policy but more pointless ranting. This is exactly my complaint.
And so I am done with you. You want to have a fight, bring policy.
"Yep. No arrogance here."
No, thats simply the choice. When you go to vote in a leadership review you have two options either you support or you do not.
If you want policy, why not raise it? You attack Link for doing his thing but you get upsted when supporters defend him. Link has made it very clear membership should decide policy and will put some policy out in the new year but Link will go to the membership at the end of the day for his policy.
I'm still trying to find the unreasonable attacks on Dwain Lingenfelter in the various babble threads.
As one of the participants, I raised what I believe are legitimate concerns about a potential Lingenfelter leadership. The most significant of these were:
a) his age - which plays directly to the party's weakness (we are perceived as an old party of old people with old ideas);
b) Link's seeming exclusion of policy renewal.
Please note, I laid responsibility for the shortage of next generation leadership at the feet of Roy Romanow and Lorne Calvert, not at the feet of Dwain Lingenfelter. Similarly, I defended Link from some criticisms I believed were inaccurate and unfair.
Yet here we have Jimmy whinging, pissing and moaning about how several of us nasty babblers "are only out to be negative."
Jimmy, I want a race. I'm likely to support a serious challenger to Lingenfelter for the reasons I've stated as well as for the simple reason that we need to have a real race.
I've made all of those same "negative" points directly to Dwain - and I expect that I will reiterate them all in person when I meet with him in the next couple of weeks.
Unlike some, I don't have an issue with Dwain Lingenfelter per se. I actually quite like him - and I very much admire the fact that he is prepared to give up a seven figure income to come back for the thankless and ill-paying job of rebuilding the part that Roy Romanow and Lorne Calvert allowed to fall into disrepair.
And should Dwain Lingenfelter win the leaadership, I will have no hesitation to support him with the same energy and dedication that I am prepared to give to a candidate opposing him for the leadership.
Dwain's a smart guy, no question. He's smart enough to start randomly attacking every link-sceptic New Democrat in the province. He's too smart to threaten (or carry out) reprisals against anyone who declines to roll up into his camp.
Such actions would be stupid.
Unfortunately, it appears that some of his supporters are exactly that stupid.
Malcolm,
Nobody is against raising concerns about Link but the off the chart false attacks against Link. If people attack Link then expect a response back. Thats not stupid but thats how politics is done. I am not whining simply stating what I view as how things are. I don't state you are pissing and moaning about the issues you raise. I simply stated that if some individuals do not want to be challenged on stating the NDP should start a campaign giving up 20 seats then they should not say that. That is what I challenged and supposedly that is being mean according to Giant Politcal Mouse and to yourself. If you think that people can say whatever they want without consequences then you are stupid.
I'm actually a pretty bright guy, which presumably why various people want to talk to me about the various leadership options.
You will also note that on the babble thread I also argued against the "right off the rural seats" strategy.
Of course, acknowledging that would mean that you'd have to admit your "only out to be negative" whinge is nowt but a load of crap.
I also note with some amusement how the simple observation that Dwain in on the right of the SaskNDP became the focus of a series of hysterical posts by one Lingenfelter supporter (who kept denying he was a Lingenfelter supporter) on that same thread.
Some of you need to learn a) tat not every comment is a criticism and b) that not every criticism is unfair.
When all this is over, we're all going to have to work together. Link is certainly not my enemy, and several of the people around him I count as friends.
Dwain is smart enough to know that a scorched earth policy towards other leadership camps is not in his best interests or the best interests of the party. It would be helpful if some of his team could grasp the same subtlety.
Malcolm, I used stupid in the same format you used it. Hysterical post? Malcolm, how do you equate the question of "How is Link right wing" as hysterical? The question was a fair one and certainly the poster allowed for criticism to be dealt. The poster did admit when they were wrong on somebody posting Link was to the right of Brad. So I am unsure how you get hysterical out of any of this.
Some posters are simply out to be negative. The mere mention of a 58 strategy was dismissed in part based on what appeared to be a dislike for rural Saskatchewan by some. Nobody mentioned you directly Malcolm and I assume individuals interested in the leadership are going to talk to as many members as possible. Greenandwhite denied working for Link which I think is his right to do so if he is not working for him?
And you will note that one of the most vigorous defenders of a 58-seat strategy was the very same poster who initiated the discussion with a series of very specific concerns about Dwain - moi.
I'm still waiting for some solid example of who this mass of people who are "only out to be negative."
And yes, I'd say the ongoing saga of "how dare you say Link is to the right of the party" was pretty hysterical. That simple observation was treated as though it were an accusation of personal moral failing, sexual impropriety or personal corruption.
Finally, yes, leadership campaigns and candidates are generall looking to speak with as many members as possible. However, I've lived through six leadership campaigns (2 SK, 1 ON and 3 fed) and have never previously had the experience of being sought out quite like this.
Hysterical is asking a simple question? Wow, some people are sensitive.
Get real, Jimmy. It wasn't just a question asked. It was a question asked over and over and over again, and treated as though a simple observation about ideological geography was the equivalent of an accusation of personal corruption.
Go look at the thread and it's predecessor and count the number of posts by greenandwhite to the efect of "how dare you" say that Link is n the right of the NDP. In a quick review, I counted 11. Iwonder how outragd G&W would have been if I'd commented on Link's eye colour.
In any event, as important or unimportant as that exchange over Link's ideological real estate was, it reflects the oncern that Giant Political Mouse was talking about - the tendency of some on the Lingenfelter team to treat ANY criticism of their candidate, or even any passing observation, as an unfair and unwaranted personal attack.
A question of how is Link right wing is asking how is he right wing. It is not an attack on anybody but simply asking a question of how one came to that conclusion. If Link is to the right of the party fine but the question was fair as it was asked when other posters stated Link was to the right of the party. Asking a simple quesiton is not hysterical given it seems to come in response to individuals stating Link is to the right of the party.
O come on.
It was constantly hurled back as though the simple observation were the vilest accusation.
And frankly, your contribution here has been in the same vein - not just unfair criticism, but ANY criticism of Dwain Lingenfelter or indeed any passing observation about Dwain Lingenfelter gets treated as though it is an unwarranted and viscious personal attack.
Frankly, some of you are really undermining your candidate's credibility, making him seem like an oversensitive crybaby.
On the rabble threads, the ONLY comment which could be considered an unreasonable criticism was more than adequately dealt with - principally by the Link-skeptics on the thread. In that regard, the pro-Lingenfelter posters were less effective a defending their candidate's interests that the Link-skeptics.
Malcolm, I think you are out to lunch on this issue. I have no issue in regards to criticism towards Link and I think asking a quesiton of how one candidate has been demeed to the right of the NDP is a fair question. What I have seen on rabble is a poster ask how individuals came to view Link as to the right of the NDP. Somebody posted nuclear and they disagreed. I assume the point of forums such as babble is to debate topics? It is strange to state that an individual asking how somebody came to view Link as to the right of the party is hysterical.
I am all for critism of any candidate as that is how candidates are able to improve but I also think there is constructive criticism and criticism which is simply meant to be negative and in that case I think individuals have every right to challenge that.
Anyone care to argue that Link is NOT to the right of the party?
Didn't think so.
I've known Dwain Lingenfelter for 30 years and I've been around the SaskNDP even longer. If someone posts that Nettie Wiebe is on the left of the party, no one spends eleven posts demanding evidence.
Really, this has to be the silliest bit of oversensitivity imaginable. And the fact that you (and peskyfly and green&white) aren't prepared to let go of it says far more about the fecklessness of some of Link's junior supporters than it says about anyone else.
BTW, would you please pick me up some lunch while you're out?
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